Yuck

[ellid]

Southern Baptist professor claims that domestic violence is due to women failing to submit to their husbands.

I have no words.

Comments

[cluegirl.livejournal.com]

I have far too many, and don't know where to begin.

Instead, then, I shall go light a candle, and pray he enjoys his next life of submission and breeding as a woman.

Berk.

[ellid.livejournal.com]

That would be most fitting, wouldn't it?

[eponis.livejournal.com]

I wish I could say I were surprised. Even a little. I've heard that line before, more than once.

But then, I spent part of my childhood at a church where they took the "women cover your heads and stay silent in church" verses literally. Compared to there, my family's other church (with a Southern Baptist pastor) was positively liberal.

tl;dr

[eponis.livejournal.com]

A more thought-out response: as much as I hate defending someone with whom I disagree so vehemently, I don't think he's saying that abuse isn't wrong. Every time I've heard that argument made, along roughly the same lines, the message is generally "abuse is wrong and bad, but as a Christian wife, you should be doing your best to maintain harmony in the house (i.e. submitting)."

The only reason I'm defending him is to point out that if liberals simply throw up our hands and say "he's defending spousal abuse!", it's easy to avoid addressing the underlying beliefs about what "the Bible commands" about women, or the wrong assumptions about viable ways of working within an imbalanced power dynamic. There are still a lot of people who genuinely believe in this stuff out there, unfortunately, and justify it to themselves by saying "but of course I wouldn't condone abuse!".

Sorry for the rant; this is a minor pet peeve of mine. Conservatives see headlines like those, roll their eyes about the "liberal media" distorting their beliefs, and become even less open to discussing why they might possibly be wrong.

And thanks for the link. :-)

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

I have lots of words, but they're loud and angry ones so I think I'll refrain...

[orphandani.livejournal.com]

I have no words.

Ditto. At least not ones that can be used in polite society.

[persevero.livejournal.com]

What especially creeps me out is that friends of ours go to Denton Baptist's sister church - in fact I've been to a service there myself. Do our friends believe that stuff? We get on so well, despite the apparent divide between Texan Christians and English Jewish non-believers, but is there a basic difference in our understanding of the world? I have been contemplating how little we usually know about even close friends. How many people know that, and what, you write? Or upon what I exercise my proofreading skills? And DLS's 'impenetrability of the human countenance'. Ugh, too much thought for a Monday morning.

Re: tl;dr

[ladyaelfwynn.livejournal.com]

I agree with you to a certain extent.

If all Christians behaved as the Bible instructs, especially the interpersonal relations stuff, then I really do think the world would be better.

I don't think that this pastor is condoning spouse abuse; he's saying it's a logical outcome when women and men don't keep to their prescribed Christian behaviour patterns.

It still doesn't mean I agree with the pastor though. There are too many men that beat their wives and kids for no reason. She is being docile and submitting and he's just honery. Blaming the women only makes it harder to get help.

Re: tl;dr

[eponis.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree 100%. I hope that what I said didn't sound like I actually agree with the pastor! All I meant was that I don't think he's saying spousal abuse is a good thing -- even though what he's saying makes it more difficult to hold men accountable for it, when it does happen. I think he's wrong, wrong, wrong, just not for the immediate kneejerk reasons.

[helwen.livejournal.com]

In the admittedly few discussions I've read/been in about husband/wife relationships based on old testament, the main focus is usually on the man should rule the house and the wife shouldn't be teaching men. This guy even says, as per usual, that men are in charge of bringing in the money to the household. But it also talks in the bible about all the responsibilities that women have, like weaving for instance -- which in the old days was a potential source of income. And what about the responsibility women have to teach the children? That's a hugely important task. Conveniently, most discussions/sermons/etc. of this sort leave out anything that might imply a woman has any capability, brains, or ability to think independently.

Marriage should be a partnership, with mutual respect for whatever each person in the marriage does best to contribute to their mutual welfare.

[helwen.livejournal.com]

*sigh*. Meant to say "ability to _act_ independently"...

Re: tl;dr

[ladyaelfwynn.livejournal.com]

No, I put the caviat in there, so people wouldn't think that I thought spouse abuse was okay.

One of the reasons I left the Catholic church was that I saw far too few people actually trying to emmulate Christ's behaviour or follow what's in the Bible.

I do believe that there are people who can be content with a Biblical marriage, where the man is the head of the family and the woman looks after the house and children. Those are relationships where being a wife and mother and taking care of her family is exactly what the woman wants to do and both parties are respectful and supportive of each other. (This is also not a Christian exclusive.)

I don't think most Christian churches actually teach their parishoners how to behave as Christian spouses, other than repeating Bible verses, which tend to go in one ear and out the other. (I bailed the Catholic church before I had to take the marriage prep class.)

Re: tl;dr

[cluegirl.livejournal.com]

One must also look at the psychological profile of abusers as well. The abusive personality does not want a docile, obedient subject, what they want is someone who will give them a reason to hit, a reason to feel justified in terrorizing, because they crave the feeling of power which this manipulation and and abuse gives them.

This is why abusers tend to target women (and men) who are bright and brilliant, and why they take so long, and work so insidiously to isolate them, to cut down their self esteem, and to make them doubt themselves before they ever take that first swing.

Violent people just have a temper and poor impulse control. Abusive husbands, wives, and parents are terrorists, and they are always out to destroy something that makes them feel inferior. Always.

That personality paragigm is not a reaction to the wife's independence, except in that the lion's reaction to the zebra herd is to hunt it down and kill one of them.

Re: tl;dr

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

No, but he is saying that abused women are responsible for their abuse which is equally as evil as saying that it's okay to abuse women.